Mo Marketing

blogging for the world to read

Black Hats: Robin Hoods or Hackers? December 21, 2008

Filed under: New Media — maureen5000 @ 5:08 pm

blackhatimage1In learning more about search engine advertising this week in class, I came across a term in my research that peaked my interest…black hat. Dictionary.com defines Black Hats, sometimes called Crackers or Hackers, as those who specialize in unauthorized penetration of information systems. Black Hats as related to search engine optimization use tactics to redirect search results to particular target pages in a fashion that is against the search engines’ terms of service (dictionary.com, 2008). White Hats, on the other hand, are those search engine optimizers that follow the rules of the search engine companies. The term is derived from the vision of movie villains who oftentimes donned a black hate while carrying out their crimes.

One blogger and self-professed Black Hat named SlightlyShady claims that her work is not unethical. Most Black Hats feel that the only winners in search engine optimization are those companies with deep pockets, and Black Hats are here to stop it. SlightlyShady claims the rules she breaks are corporate rules put forth by search engine companies and not the community as a whole. “Whose rules are they anyway?” she writes. She continues, “Search engines are not invited to sites. They copy/cache content, and do whatever they can to profit from this content they were never asked to access. With this idea in mind, why would I not do the same as them, and attempt to profit from them profiting off of me?” (June 4, 2008).

Based on her line of reasoning, ‘they steal so why can’t I?’ I get it, but I don’t know that particularly agree.

Black Hats can wreak havoc online and cause horrendous user issues. As one blogger stated in a response to SlightlyShady, “I think you miss the reason why many people despise black hat and black hat tactics… it’s because you provide a terrible user experience. Scraped content, arbitrage, spamming, etc. only makes the Internet a worse place for uses,” (June, 4 2008). Regardless of how you feel, myself included, about Google, Yahoo and these companies way of shaping their own rules related to search engine ethics, they offer us an invaluable service. They work to glean out spam and intrusive search engine results to ensure the best online experience possible.

Apparently this struggle between black hats and white hats and search engine companies will continue. Who’s right in their reasoning, though? If it’s possible, I think all sides are right.

References

Dictionary.com (2008) Retrieved on December 21, 2008 from http://www.reference.com/search?q=Black+hat.

SlightlyShady (June 4, 2008) BlackHat Ethics? Whose Rules are They Anyways? Retrieved on December 21, 2008 from http://www.searchenginepeople.com/blog/blackhat-seo-ethics.html.

 

Online ignorance…it’s worse than you think December 21, 2008

Filed under: New Media — maureen5000 @ 8:59 am

This week’s class discussion focused on the topic of search engine advertising. Specifically, our discussion was centered on whether or not this practice is ethical or not. I was probably one of the only students that actually considered this practice unethical. Let me clarify. I completely understand the purpose of search engine advertising and fully agree that companies like Google and Yahoo must utilized this advertising as a source of revenue, my issue is with their very subtle and hidden way of masking these search engine results as advertising.

One idea that was introduced through our class discussion was the notion of establishing a code of ethics, which search engine companies should abide by, obligating themselves to the rules and even displaying a seal that signifies their agreement with the code. This is an excellent concept and one that I think the FTC had hoped would happen after offering their own warnings to the industry on this topic. The most notable person behind this concept is Bruce Clay, who was an online practitioner that introduced his own code of ethics.

I still believe that search engine companies are preying on the overwhelming ignorance of most online consumers and should resort to clearly labeling ads as what they are, not sponsorships, not featured links, but instead advertisements.

To prove my point, here are some interesting facts regarding the knowledge base of American regarding the internet and online use. I recognize that I have cherry picked the stats that work to reinforce my point, but they are also valid and speak to the issue in this particular blog.

  • According to a study earlier this year, 73% of adult American use the internet.ignorance1

  • 92% of those who use search engines say they are confident about their searching abilities, with over half of them, 52%, saying they’re “very confident” (Fallows, January 23, 2005).

  • 68% of users say that search engines are a fair and unbiased source of information; 19% say they don’t place that trust in search engines (Fallows, January 23, 2005).

  • A Pew Internet and American Project found that most Americans are not sure of what such terms as phishing, podcasting and RSS fees mean. Men, more so than women, tend to be familiar with terms like these. And younger users, ages 18-29, are more knowledgeable than older online users (July 2005).

  • By reading this blog, you are one of only 33% of online users who do such an activity (Pew Internet, July 22, 2008).

  • Only 29% of users are use an online social networking site like MySpace, Facebook or LinkedIn.com (Pew Internet, July 22, 2008).

My intention for sharing these statistics is to simply reinforce my belief that all companies, search engine brands and new media generators must be cognizant and not take advantage of this overall inexperience and ignorance of the internet when designing elements of their business, including search engine advertising. As Dr. Deborah Fallows points out in her study of search engine use, “Internet searchers are confident, satisfied and trusting – but they are also unaware and naïve,” (January 23, 2005).

References

Fallows, Deborah (January 23, 2005) Search Engine Users. Retrieved on December 21, 2008 from http://www.pewinternet.org/pdfs/PIP_Searchengine_users.pdf.

Pew Internet (July 2005) The average American internet user is not sure what podcasting is, what an RSS feed does, or what the term “phishing” means. Retrieved on December 21, 2008 from http://www.pewinternet.org/pdfs/PIP_Data_Techterm_aware.pdf.

Pew Internet (July 22, 2008) Internet Activities. Retrieved on December 21, 2008 from http://www.pewinternet.org/trends/Internet_Activities_7.22.08.htm.

 

Dead zone – Ugh. Now, Bluetooth marketing – Ugh. December 11, 2008

Filed under: New Media — maureen5000 @ 6:53 pm

bluetootharticle2Everyday I drive home from the office; I have one hand on the wheel and another hand on my mobile device. I know, it’s unsafe, but I’m admittedly someone who must always to be connected. About one mile from home, I hit a dead zone. I hate it. I can’t get a cell signal. I can’t sync my email. And, if I’m on the phone with someone, the call immediately gets dropped. It’s frustrating.

Now, with the introduction of Bluetooth marketing, there may be another zone that I will dread even more. Bluetooth marketing, sometimes called proximity marketing is the ability to send short messages, images and applications to mobile phones, PDA, and PocketPCs over a given distance (BlueMagic, 2008).

So, besides my general dread of another geographic zone, what’s the problem with Bluetooth Marketing? Like I mentioned, I like to be connected. This is a different kind of connectivity, though. Imagine that I’m walking down the street and walk past a dress shop. All of a sudden, my phone beeps with a message letting me know that there is a sale taking place at the shop. Doesn’t seem too bad, right? Now, though I’m walking past four or five other stores which all send me messages on my mobile device. This could be maddening.

As a marketer, I get it. As a consumer, though I fear it. That’s where the problem lies. We, as marketers, must always put ourselves in the position of the consumer. As Hannah Gilchrist of BT Business Insight points out:

“Bombarding people with information isn’t always the best way to get their business especially at the cost of their privacy. And that is at the heart of the problem, marketing regulations state that you have to be able to either opt-in or out of receiving the information, a feature that Bluetooth does not incorporate, making it an impractical and perhaps soon illegal way of targeting your customers,” (December 5, 2007)

Bluetooth marketing is a powerful tool for marketers. But regardless of its amazing ability to reach out to consumers in new and exciting ways, Bluetooth is headed down a road of regulation and possibly failure.

References

BlueMagic (2008) What is Bluetooth Marketing? Retrieved on December 11, 2008 from http://bluemagiq.com/.

Gilchrsit, Hannah (December 5, 2007) Bluetooth marketing faces shut-down. Retrieved on December 11, 2008 from http://blog.btbroadbandoffice.com/archive/email-and-communications/bluetooth-marketing-faces-shut.php.

 

Streaming media about to garner more attention November 25, 2008

Filed under: New Media — maureen5000 @ 12:21 am

pandoraStreaming media has not been given enough recognition. Although this particular form of marketing refers mostly to the vehicle and not the actual message, it’s important for marketers to recognize the importance of this growing technology. Streaming media takes on many forms, but at its core, it is a process by which internet users can see and hear sound or video as its being downloaded (Ramos, August 18, 2008).

Pandora.com is one example of streaming media that I’ve become a fan of. Pandora was created out of the Music Genome Project in 2000 with the goal of offering users the “most comprehensive analysis of music ever undertaken,” (Pandora, 2008). Essentially, users log on and select some of their favorite artists. Based on those selections, Pandora selects a collection of streaming music that compliments those interests.

I’ve also enjoyed streaming media through NBC.com where I can watch full episodes of some of my favorite television shows. Select episodes of ’30 Rock’ and ‘The Office’ can be found online in their entirety and with only a handful of commercials peppered throughout the episode.

Here’s the hook for marketers….more and more these outlets have a need to become more commercialized. That’s good for marketers looking for alternative ways to reach consumers. But, it’s not so good for online streaming media fans that enjoy the absence of commercials.

“The networks and distributors putting TV online are facing some tough economics. Even if they’re selling ads at a healthy $35 to $50 cost per thousand, there just aren’t enough of them to pay the bills,” stated Michael Learnmonth in a recent Advertising Age article (October 6, 2008).

The amount of revenue generated from the few commercials that are currently embedded in some streaming media are not allowing carriers to break even with the expenses of bandwidth, hosting and technology costs. And, as the need for high definition grows, the costs will substantially grow; in some cases even triple.

Keep an eye on this marketing vehicle, folks. I think we’re about to see it move the forefront of effective ways of reaching new and highly targeted audiences.

References

Learnmonth, Michael (October 6, 2008) Distributors, networks push for more ads in TV shows online. Retrieved on November 25, 2008 from http://www.lexisnexis.com.www.libproxy.wvu.edu/us/lnacademic/results/docview/docview.do?docLinkInd=true&risb=21_T5429885741&format=GNBFI&sort=BOOLEAN&startDocNo=1&resultsUrlKey=29_T5429885745&cisb=22_T5429885744&treeMax=true&treeWidth=0&csi=8093&docNo=6Bottom of Form.

Pandora (2008) About Pandora. Retrieved on November 25, 2008 from http://www.pandora.com/corporate/.

Ramos, James (August 18, 2008) Lesson 6: The Reel Deal: Short Films & Streaming Media. Retrieved on November 25, 2008 from https://ecampus.wvu.edu/webct/urw/lc5116001.tp0/cobaltMainFrame.dowebct.

 

Ring….it’s a commercial calling November 19, 2008

Filed under: New Media — maureen5000 @ 2:01 am

mobile_marketingIts dinner time and I’ve just sat down from a long day at work and RING, it’s a telemarketer. Gawd – I hate that. This isn’t anything new, though. We’ve been exposed to the interruptions of telemarketers for years and years. Welcome, now, though, to a whole new era. Marketing messages have reached into our lives in new ways – through our cell phones.

Cell phone marketing, or mobile marketing is very different than the traditional automated phone calls you receive when you’re sitting down at the dining room table. Federal Communications Commission regulations prohibit telemarketers from using automated dialers to call cell phone numbers (October 4, 2007). Instead, brands are sending highly personalized messages through mobile devices, either texting or emailing or in some cases calling, all seeking to connect with consumers on an entirely new level.

This movement towards reaching consumers through their mobile devices is a natural transition. Marketers follow consumers, and right now, consumers are chasing after mobile devices at a furious pace. According to a recent study, cell phone subscriptions reached more than 3.3 billion users. Put in realistic terms, that’s half of the world’s population (Ramos, August 18, 2008).

So, back to my dinner interruption….if I feel violated on my hard line phone, wouldn’t I feel even more intruded upon through my cell or mobile device? No. Somehow, we as consumers have subtly transitioned these past five to ten years to expect and crave and interactivity with our brands. For that reason, mobile marketing offers us the most accessible and instantaneous form of interactivity. Next, its permission based. If you don’t want to hear from XYZ company, you don’t have to. Most mobile marketing efforts request permission upfront. And, if you choose to opt out later, then with the click of a button, you’re out. Finally, there’s a sense of control with mobile marketing. It’s on our own time and on our own terms and is connecting to consumers based on relevancy.

Avid mobile users span all age groups, however, it’s safe to say that many are younger. And, younger generations tends to accept new trends. A study from Enpocket found that most mobile consumers, ages 16 to 44, find advertising on mobile sites acceptable (Kang, January 26, 2007). Its not because their trendy and highly acceptable of all things new. No, instead, it’s because most of these younger mobile user don’t look to their mobile devices as a phone like the hard line ringing away from the telemarketers. Instead, their mobile device is identified more so like their own computer. And, like their computer use, advertising is highly acceptable and expected.

References

FCC (October 4, 2007) National Do Not Call Registry. Retrieved on November 19, 2008 from http://www.ftc.gov/donotcall.

Kang, Susie (January 26, 2007) The Mobile Marketing Maelstrom: Why the Confusion and Hype isn’t Dampening the Optimism. Retrieved on November 19 from http://www.adotas.com/2007/01/the-mobile-marketing-maelstron-why-the-confusion-and-hype-isnt-dampening-the-optimism/.

Ramos, James (August 18, 2008) Lesson 5: Can You Hear Me Now? M2M, Advergaming, In-game Branding & RSS feeds. Retrieved on November 17, 2008 from https://ecampus.wvu.edu/webct/urw/lc5116001.tp0/cobaltMainFrame.dowebct.

 

Product placement enters video game realm November 18, 2008

Filed under: New Media — maureen5000 @ 1:49 pm

Product placement has always existed as a subtle, yet highly effective tactic for brands to expand awareness. Seinfeld was put in the product placement hall of fame for its Junior Mint episode. American Idol judges only drink Coca-Cola. And, James Bond tends to only drive the latest and greatest BMW in his 007 movies.

The next evolution of product placement is in-game branding. The technique, much like traditional product placement, is incorporated into video games.

Video games reach a broad audience; children and teens, adults and families, male and female. A Pew Internet and American Life Project found that more than half of American adults play video games, and one is five plays nearly everyday (RedOrbit, December 8, 2008). Those numbers only grow for younger audiences. Within the video game culture there are typically two types of players: gamers and game players (Whalen, 2003). Game players are simply users who occasionally play video games. However, gamers are avid users and tpically take an active part in a gaming culture which includes online chats, co-play and blogs. In a study about the topic, researcher Zach Whalen wrote:

Gamers embody and give meaning to the idea of a “gaming community,” treat games as significant cultural objects, and write reviews which influence the buying decisions of gamers. The sense of pride Gamers associate with their gaming skill is closely related to their investment in the game’s space and the amount of time they spend immersed in it,” (Whalen, 2003).

Who better to market to? Not only are gamers a target audience for many of the brands using product placement within the video games, but they are also consumers who will talk about the product. In many ways, these avid gamers could be considered ‘influentials,’ another marketing concept based on opinion leaders as a key audience for many brands (Frost, February 9, 2004). The ‘influential’ concept, introduced by RoperASW pollsters Ed Keller and Jon Berry, states that despite more modem marketing and communication efforts, word of mouth is still the most effective way to build a brand. This concept applies perfectly to the gamer culture. Gamers are influencers. They talk about brands. They influence others. Put it all together, video game branding is a highly effective way to market a brand.

In-game branding is actually a spin on advergaming in which marketers use gaming as a promotional tool. For instance, Snickers or Coca-Cola might choose to purchase a billboard within a popular game such as NBA Basketball One-on-One or Highway Racer. With in-game branding, the opportunities for marketers to forge ties with desirable advergaming companies are virtually endless.

References

Frost, Randall (February 9, 2004) Gaining Influence by Word of Mouth. Retrieved on November 18, 2008 from http://www.brandchannel.com/features_effect.asp?pf_id=196.

RedOrbit (December 8, 2008) Half Of Adults Play Video Games. Retrieved on November 18, 2008 from http://www.redorbit.com/news/technology/1607270/half_of_adults_play_video_games/index.html.

Whalen, Zach (2003) Product Placement and Virtual Branding in Video Games. Retrieved on November 18, 2008 from http://www.nwe.ufl.edu/~zwhalen/consumer/productsingames.html

 

Enough already: Make email marketing meaningful November 18, 2008

Filed under: New Media — maureen5000 @ 3:22 am

The world of email based marketing has opened up new doors for brands to reach consumers in a more intimate and email_iconcandid way. The savings which email marketing offers is staggering, when compared to traditional direct mail efforts. According to the Direct Marketing Association, brands invested more than $500 million in email marketing, which in turn then yielded $21.9 billion in sales (Ramos, August 18, 2008). CEO of Habeas Des Cahill stated that consumers are now “even more dependent on email for their relationships with each other,” (Adfero, May 21, 2008). Mr. Cahill is correct. Those relationships we have with each other through email should relate also to the relationship built between brands and their consumers.

I feel strongly though, that email marketing can only be effective when the message is properly crafted and timed. Email marketing must be relevant to the consumers’ interests. It’s like a person to person relationship. There needs to be a desire to connect, yet there should also be space between the two parties. At this point, I don’t have much space in my relationship with certain brands because of their overzealous email marketing efforts.

These aren’t SPAM emails that I’m referring to. Instead, I’m speaking directly to those brands which have received approval to communicate via email with me. When I clicked that permission box, though, I didn’t realize the daily commitment I was making to this brand relationship. I’m sorry Target, but I don’t even hear from my husband in a day as much as I hear from you. That goes for you, too, Pottery Barn and your sibling Pottery Barn for Kids, Pottery Barn for Teens and anyone else in your family. And, Macy’s, how can it possibly be the ‘very lowest prices of the season’ every week, sometimes twice a week when you email me? In the dating scene, these brands would equate to that creepy guy that you thought was nice until he kept calling you again and again after just one date.

If your brand is not offering a special promotion, or allowing special entry into an exclusive element of the brand experience, or just giving something special to that consumer, then email marketing is not a reason to reach out to consumers. It’s a fine line to walk for many brands, though. On one hand email marketing is oh-so tempting to use over and over based on its ease of use and low cost of implementation. On the other hand, though, email based business to consumer relationships can be delicate and should be handled with care.

Reference

Adfero (May 21, 2008) Research suggests continuing consumer demand and interest in email. Retrieved on November 17, 2008 from http://www.businessstrata.com/Win/News-Archive/Marketing-News/?storyId=902&title=Research+suggests+continuing+consumer+demand+and+interest+in+email.

Ramos, James (August 18, 2008) Lesson 4: Online Direct Marketing: E-mail Marketing, Spam, Ethics & Consumer Privacy. Retrieved on November 13, 2008 from https://ecampus.wvu.edu/webct/urw/lc5116001.tp0/cobaltMainFrame.dowebct.

 

I’ll get you my pretty…are toys preying on children’s minds? November 17, 2008

Filed under: New Media — maureen5000 @ 4:05 am

Just as the Wicked Witch sought to terrorize young Dorothy, the same could be said of brand websites which prey on wickedwitchmdchildren. Okay, they aren’t all that bad, but no one can discount the incredible influence that the web plays in the lives of children today, even at a very young age. Strategic use of web banner ads and product placement throughout a website subtly and some not so subtly influence the outlook of our children. These are a very different type of online predators. They are marketing machines.

A typical toy, for example, is not just a toy. It’s a toy experience. The toy is just the beginning of an interactive experience. Barbie looks like the same doll which many of us are familiar with from our childhood, but now young girls are able to enter an online world of Barbie where she talks, walks and lives her life in animation right before their eyes.

It’s a trend that truly sweeping the toy industry, blurring the lines between offline and online play for children. With that, though, comes a strong presence from those marketers who are strategically dropping hints about new products and constantly bombarding the screen with brand images.

I don’t want to belittle the educational advantages of computers and the internet for children. It’s all very amazing to me. I’m even jealous. My greatest rise as a small child was a battery operated cash register that had a digital screen. That was technologically advanced for the 70’s! Now, though Mattel has launched Barbie dolls that come complete with their own USB port, able to link young girls with an online life where the new doll can work, play and date (MSNMoney, April 30, 2007). Other Barbie models include an MP3 player, integrating branded music into their play experience.

My fear about these online toy worlds come from my lack of understanding. How are children wired these days? Why don’t they just want to go play outside? When I was a kid, this type of play wouldn’t have been acceptable. Oye! I’m hearing voices from my past when mom and dad used to talk about the ‘good ol days.’

It is amazing and scary and mind boggling to consider what toys have become today and what they will evolve into in the future. I hope that each advancement made on products like our beloved Barbie, come with an instruction manual and guide for parents, monitoring our children’s online experience and helping break down for the kids the tremendous brand contact they are exposed to.

References
MSNMoney (April 30, 2007) Barbie 2.0: Toy icon goes interactive. Retrieved on November 17, 2008 from http://articles.moneycentral.msn.com/Investing/Extra/BarbieGoesInteractive.aspx

 

The future of yellow pages November 9, 2008

Filed under: New Media — maureen5000 @ 5:12 pm

MY HUSBAND: Honey, what’s the name of that Japanese restaurant in Akron?

ME: I don’t know. I’ll look it up.

Woman opens laptop and clicks away to find the name and address of the restaurant in question.

Okay – this isn’t really a play, but it is an insight into a habit and behavior that occurs in my household. What’s missing from this scenario? The yellow pages.

One of the topics discussed in class this week was the quickly disappearing tool of the yellow pages. This media, above all others, I believe is a medium that will disappear before it even has a chance to morph into another technologically advance form. As sentimental and personal I am about attacks on the newspaper industry, I almost feel like leading the attack on yellow pages. I hate the yellow pages. I hate the tiny type and the pages upon pages of information that I can never seem to quickly scan for the information I need. It’s outdated as quickly as it’s printed. And the process by which I retrieve the information is not precise. I find myself reciting the ABC song while my finger is scanning up and down each column.

In online searches I did come across some listings for conferences on the future of yellow pages. One post yellow-pageswrote about the name change that occurred in 2006, from Yellow Pages to Yellow, an change that “reflect the fact that today Yellow™ is much more than a print directory.” Although the apparent focus of the future is on internet yellow pages, I’m curious if this transition will happen quickly enough. Furthermore, I wonder if it’s enough.

The internet is a vast and comprehensive source of information. And, although internet yellow pages would be one way to find information about local businesses, there are so many other options. Given my scenario above looking for the Japanese restaurant, I wasn’t necessarily turning to the internet yellow pages. Instead, I was using a search engine to locate a regional restaurant guide or the restaurant’s specific website.

Only the future will tell what lies ahead for the yellow pages. For me, I’ve already made the switch away from the printed publication and have not turned yet to the internet yellow pages as my resource.

 

New media discussion empowers me November 7, 2008

Filed under: New Media — maureen5000 @ 2:56 am

This week’s post dealt with the subject of dying media. The question was posed: will new media eliminate traditional media. Well, okay, it was actually about changes that will occur in media in the face of so many new media products being introduced. Of course, this topic scared the be-Jesus out of me. I deal with it everyday when I wake up and go to work at a newspaper. Yes, a newspaper…that dinosaur, as some would say, of the modern world. Will this job exist in a few years? Will there even be a newspaper in the future? Is it the beginning of the end? Or, is the end already here?

Before we even had a chance to post, I was mulling over these thoughts in my mind, gearing up for a week’s worth of battle, defending the future of newspapers. I was so pleasantly surprised though by how empowering this week’s posts ended up becoming. I didn’t feel defeated. I felt optimistic and energized about the role of newspapers in the ever-changing world of media today.

Technology is definitely an innovation that has changed the future of newspapers. However that future doesn’t need to be bleak if newspaper companies are able to embrace the change and adapt to it. As I stated in my post for class this week, ‘news, is, news, is news.’ And, whether it’s delivered on your doorstep in a print, or it’s emailed to your mobile phone…it’s the same and ultimately, the art will survive.

I truly want to thank my classmates for helping me feel energized about the future of newspapers, and truly the future of my career. I’ve never been one to walk away from a challenge, and the excitement of challenges in the newspaper field are defiantly something that I’m looking forward to now more than ever.

On this topic, I found a wonderful blog called the Glass House by Fred Shaw, who writes about this very topic:

For the past couple of years, however, newspapers have been thinking more boldly about what to do on the Internet. At its most basic, that means reporting stories using cameras and microphones as well as print. The results can be encouraging. America’s Academy of Television Arts & Sciences has introduced a new Emmy award for news and documentaries on the Internet, mobile phones and personal media players. Five of the seven nominations for this September have gone to reports by nytimes.com and washingtonpost.com.

It also means being more imaginative. In the late 1990s, the early years of the Wall Street Journal’s website, one of the paper’s journalists came up with the novel idea of posting online a 573-page document that backed up an article. “It wasn’t the most compelling content,” remembers Neil Budde, its founding editor and now general manager of news at Yahoo!, an internet portal. But it was a start. Now newspapers have a better idea of what works online. This is not always traditional journalism as taught in journalism school. Brian Tierney, who became owner of the Philadelphia Inquirer after Knight Ridder sold it last year, noticed that a popular item on the paper’s website has been a video of Mentos mints causing a 2-litre bottle of Diet Coke to explode into the air. “We should do more of that,” he says.